Creative Methods and Research - In conversation with Jackie Hodgson

00:00:08: Welcome to the in-court podcast.

00:00:11: The podcasts were redelving into the trials and tribulations of the courtroom.

00:00:15: My name is Nina Thornquist, I'm a criminologist at Uppsala University Sweden.

00:00:20: my research centers on the worlds legal professionals with particular focus on emotion and legal decision making.

00:00:27: i have observed criminal court cases in sweden for almost decade.

00:00:32: My name is Chloe Squires and I'm a postdoctoral research at Lancaster University.

00:00:37: my PhD work looked at the sentencing of individuals charged with tourism offenses, And I observed court proceedings in England &

00:00:44: Wales.

00:00:48: In this podcast, we dive into complexities.

00:01:03: We have identified throughout our times observing legal proceedings to demystify what

00:01:08: happens in the courtroom.

00:01:11: My name is Jacqueline Hodgson.

00:01:12: I work in The School of Law at University of Warwick in UK and my work is across a broad range of criminal justice areas.

00:01:21: It's principally empirical A lot it comparative focused around due process and fair trial rights.

00:01:29: And then in the last four or five years, I have developed this new area of work around creative methods particularly focusing on the criminal justice process

00:01:37: and latterly on anti-racial law.

00:01:41: Welcome Jackie.

00:01:41: we're really pleased to have you on the podcast.

00:01:43: thanks for taking the time to speak with us.

00:01:46: We

00:01:46: know off a project of yours In which you try reshape police community engagement from what you describe as sometimes hostile to more positive and sustainable.

00:01:58: The whole project was part of the Coventry UK City Of Culture in twenty-twenty one, the important bit was that it really a cooperation between academics and artists And That Was The Core Of The Project.

00:02:10: Like When I Heard You Talk About It Before And Also Had The Opportunity To See Some Bits On The Project I Think That Was A Key Element.

00:02:18: Could You

00:02:19: Explain For Our Listeners Very Briefly What exactly the creative methods were that you used in the former project?

00:02:28: Very happy to be here.

00:02:29: Thank you for inviting me!

00:02:31: So, the kinds of things we did... We started off with just some quite simple free writing and so officers asked us a couple of provocations.

00:02:40: For example what would tell your younger self before you thought about applying for police Those kind of thing.. We ask them think about their ideal day would look like both at work and at home.

00:02:51: And just as ways of raising issues, talking about things in a very easy sort-of space... There are overlaps between creative methods.

00:03:01: we might call them also some of the pedagogic techniques that we use for our academic teaching too.

00:03:06: Then we asked him to do some creative writing Some freewriting, some wrote poetry then probably most powerful I think was when We took some provocations various stimuli a news story.

00:03:19: We took something from Coventry City of Culture, which was a story about a set of firearms officers who'd bashed down the door of our house very early in the morning and the impact it had on the young woman –the daughter–who's living in that house.

00:03:31: So… The police took that incident And then they wrote a script around it thinking so what?

00:03:38: How would it be for that young woman?

00:03:39: What was she thinking when she then had to go into school and she was late for her exam, And what is going through the police officer's mind?

00:03:47: in a way they're trained to behave.

00:03:50: If we followed them up one year later and said so how does this look now?

00:03:53: or has there been an impact on

00:03:54: someone?".

00:03:55: That was incredibly powerful because I watched him writing that script.

00:03:58: as he wrote that script One of his officers became very distressed and recognised herself and said, you know I'm one of the good ones.

00:04:11: You know i'm a mum...I joined for the right reasons and she had to step away.

00:04:15: She was upset so it had this kind of triggering effect on her.

00:04:19: So obviously we were all very concerned To make sure that she was okay And so on.

00:04:25: That was very powerful.

00:04:27: the developing of an essentially fictionalised script, could then have that incredible emotional connection for that person.

00:04:34: And we did a sharing at the end where things that The Officers had created were played out by professional actors and we had some senior officers who involved in.

00:04:43: this was all part of this national police-based action plan work.

00:04:46: Some officers who are leads on that.

00:04:48: I think they're pretty blown away to thinking if you looked up the play You thought gosh!

00:04:53: That's quite powerful.

00:04:54: If your told that Police officers wrote it you know, and these were not favourable to police.

00:04:59: kind of really appreciating these different perspectives as well as appreciating that the police have to do a job.

00:05:05: And so on... So that was very powerful!

00:05:08: Then another thing we did which is more classic forum theatre.

00:05:12: this part of body-of-work dates back to Coventry UK City Of Culture.

00:05:15: One things I did with my co-investigator Dr Rachel Lewis who's also at University of Warwick.

00:05:21: We cocommissioned play in Belgrade Theatre And it's a character called Slick, who is young black man and he's in the centre of Coventry.

00:05:31: He's quite upbeat and amusing... ...and talking about his sunny day off to the chicken shop when I'm going to do this!

00:05:38: Then he sees some police officers and a whole load of vans... ..and describes how that is kind-of IN HIS DNA to run into the other direction as a young Black Man.

00:05:46: This isn't where he wants to be going.

00:05:48: So we told the Police Officers about this scene.. ..and asked them about that.

00:05:52: Some were confused too why this young black man would be wary of the police and did not recognise that they were seen as a source of danger.

00:06:00: They wouldn't understand themselves, as a sort of

00:06:03: safety.".

00:06:04: And then we acted out.

00:06:05: scene... The first time we acted at the scene you know?

00:06:07: That was fine!

00:06:08: ...and the slick character.

00:06:09: We got him to actually walk towards the police saying oh yes we're just here there's been a bit of disturbance.

00:06:15: he passes through it is fine He changes his demeanour, and he has a different attitude.

00:06:22: And he's got a bit of swagger... ...and is like looking pretty cross.. ..and he's sucking his teeth!

00:06:28: What are you doing here?

00:06:29: This is my kinder area and blah blah blah.

00:06:36: But just as he starts to do that straight away the officer's body language changed….

00:06:40: …and they square up to him.

00:06:42: Then before we know it one male officers have an actor's arm on their back.

00:06:47: in an arm lock and so we have to call time on the thing because were worried about Kieran.

00:06:51: And it was just, really instructive.

00:06:53: as I give when people think are you doing all this fluffy stuff with officers?

00:06:57: You know there's a bit of acting no one is going take seriously like oh they do!

00:07:03: It pulls into your moment.

00:07:07: So why did you behave that way?

00:07:08: How might you do that differently?

00:07:10: What might you

00:07:11: Do?".

00:07:11: And so, one officer said well I guess i would look to see what I could do To construct some reasonable suspicion and to justify the actions.

00:07:20: The other officers sort of had their head in Their hands saying no No!

00:07:23: That's not what we do.

00:07:24: It was almost like he'd been a little bit too honest and kind Of naive.

00:07:28: So it kinda gives You A Little Bit of a flavour... ...and I think it Was really important for our creative collaborators.. ..that this wasn't just about the work that we were doing in the workshops and getting a police to understand things in different ways.

00:07:41: It was also about the police creating something, That really is part of the story as part of method for them to immerse themselves into create whether it's a piece creative writing poetry sort-of duologues can be acted out so on And they say had sharing lasted about an hour which we filmed, and in front of our advisory group.

00:08:00: So we are a court podcast not so much police podcasts And you have worked on the upsides and downsides Of this approach In working with The Police.

00:08:11: Do You think that the very same project would be feasible?

00:08:17: Instead of working around the relationship between Police and the public do you Think it will be possible to shape something similar around the relationship between court and the public or defendants, lawyers etc.

00:08:33: Okay

00:08:33: so there's a lot to unpack there.

00:08:35: So yes using creative methods.

00:08:38: Yes that was part of Coventry UK City Of Culture At that point not working on project like this but much more in evaluation.

00:08:45: And an observation therefore actually how is it working?

00:08:48: Using those creative methods In collaboration with artists and creatives locally in Coventry, the police and also members of community.

00:08:57: And as you say that was about trying to reshape some relationships.

00:09:02: there had been hostile... ...and seeing whether using those creative approaches or being engaged in a collaborative endeavour might help open up spaces of trust.

00:09:12: So there is bunch.

00:09:13: work around that.

00:09:15: And then we flipped it round and thought, well rather than always looking at the community and getting a community to trust really its police who need change.

00:09:25: so how about we flip the lens.

00:09:31: How might we use some creative methods there to get them, think differently?

00:09:36: To perhaps connect in more empathetic ways.

00:09:40: And if they just understand perspectives differently maybe that will change their practice and outlook.

00:09:46: So when you're asking about the courtroom I guess it could be a similar thing because essentially It's about the potential of creative method have to Use emotional engagement as way underpinning empathy.

00:09:59: So you can't train empathy, but you could do quite a lot towards that.

00:10:02: and so as a bit of...you know.. You might talk about walking in someone else's shoes or those kinds of ideas.

00:10:08: And one of the things I think has worked really well is taking some kind of piece of theatre Some kind of dramatic narrative and then asking police to engage with it.

00:10:18: It will often resonate with their own experiences But rather than having them say ''I do this'' I think this, it can then be the they.

00:10:28: So moving from putting that distance there makes it a safer space for them to engage in something.

00:10:34: That's quite difficult, which is what we've been doing with the police around anti-racism.

00:10:38: so I think It might be interesting.

00:10:40: i guess you could do something.

00:10:41: You can imagine Doing Something With Judges To Think Okay Let's Have A Think About The Kind Of Defendants Who Are In Front of You And Yes Many Of Them Have Committed Criminal Offences and So On.

00:10:51: But Lets Take A Bit Of Time That You Would Normally Have To Think About Their Background How They Came Where You Were narrative, some little vignettes that perhaps based on people's real lives and then getting judges to engage with it a bit using forum theatre where they actually... intervene and become part of the dramatic dialogue that's going on, I'm thinking about also then how would you do things differently?

00:11:18: So essentially it is an understanding.

00:11:20: How does that character feel?

00:11:22: And as they say i think its always easier to do in a slightly more indirect way.

00:11:27: so not too personal ,so don't feel judged .

00:11:30: It feels safer talking about complex sensitive often contested and so on.

00:11:39: Thanks Jackie, if I understand correctly the methods you use were to help understanding remedy kind of hostilities in mistrust between the public and policing?

00:11:52: And i just wanted to know really how did you establish buy-in from both of the different parties?

00:11:59: because If there's this hostility then might be a reticence or reluctance to engage.

00:12:04: So wonder

00:12:07: So, for the original work around Coventry UK City of Culture that was police-led.

00:12:12: The police were principal partners in city culture and so they kind set up those collaborations And we came along to evaluate it.

00:12:22: For this work which is very much focused on the police We are not needing buy-in from our community.

00:12:30: And you're absolutely right that, if we had just called a police force and asked to do that probably would have been really difficult.

00:12:37: But I think because we had done the evaluation... ...and we had an evidence base for what we were proposing.. ..and because the person who'd been the commander in Coventry during Coventy City of Culture is an assistant chief constable….

00:12:49: …who has The Police Race Action Plan in his strategic portfolio.

00:12:53: he's kind-of on board.

00:12:55: so he understands He has seen first hand the power of creative methods and understands that there are whatever, six or eight thousand police officers in West Midlands Police.

00:13:06: And so generally training is what they call click-and-skip because it's online.

00:13:19: And in that evaluation, one of the things at The Officers said was how much they valued having the time to reflect on these things because they needed to unpack difficult complex sensitive things.

00:13:30: Things were hard.

00:13:31: talk about.

00:13:32: you know are we using the right words?

00:13:35: We're not quite sure how we should talk about race or don't understand this?

00:13:38: and in the race action plan.

00:13:40: so So having their officers buy-in and then us have evidence saying This is what we're proposing.

00:13:47: Here are some creatives that we've collaborated with before, and the police have been a little bit involved in when we did the co-commissioning of The Play.

00:13:55: We did some work with Police and local schools – this is what we're proposing, our programme... And then we had to really lean on their officer….

00:14:04: …to get buy-in from the force exec team because they had to abstract officers.

00:14:11: There were four three hour sessions and then a three-hour sharing.

00:14:15: So that was fifteen hours, which doesn't sound much but it's actually huge amount for some of the police training.

00:14:21: And what I haven't talked about is this second phase Which we're just about to embark on.

00:14:26: in two weeks time We've been planning with these so called SPOCs Single Points Of Contact.

00:14:32: The idea there Is That we do work using creative methods but we also just equipped them a little bit with some tools to think about how they might use some of those things, in quite small ways.

00:14:45: In their work with teams and communities rather than going into the traditional modes like talking or at you etc... We've had to get that buy-in, abstraction… But this will be more sustainable because then the information is cascading down And it becomes this sort of like, I don't know whether there's a domino effect or a pyramid scheme.

00:15:10: Or you know what quite the analogy is and in that we have What they are calling themselves early adopters.

00:15:17: So these are the people who from Seishat last year were really really blown in Blown away by this and have really bought into This and so they're quite keen to be involved?

00:15:26: And so one of them Is an inspector which is the level that you need to be for this second phase And so it's going to be really good to have him in the room, I think as we're working with these officers on new things and will have someone who has had that experience last year.

00:15:41: So i think can really help that bridge because there are academics were creatives and this police... We all inhabit very different worlds!

00:15:49: Sometimes we were worried about being a credibility gap but again.. Because its underpinned by research.

00:15:56: thats been an important thing for the police

00:15:59: too.

00:15:59: Do you know what impact the methods have had on policing practice or policing outcomes?

00:16:06: So obviously that would be, kind of... The pot-of-gold at the end of the rainbow is if it changes behaviour.

00:16:12: We certainly knew in the beginning we asked whether police officers thought creative methods could be a valuable way to change their understanding of relationships with the public and not so much practice I guess.

00:16:25: but yes they're understanding thought that at the beginning and, it was around seventy.

00:16:32: So I think we could really show you know they had bought into those methods for them.

00:16:37: They felt It'd really kind of catalyzed some kind of change in The way That were thinking understanding And so on.

00:16:44: what We're going to try To do is see if we can get Those offices together a year later?

00:16:49: Just say to Them as anything changed Are You doing things In your teams are you Doing Things in Your practice?

00:16:55: you know, they could say oh we're doing all kinds of fabulous things and then nods.

00:16:59: You know?

00:16:59: We're not saying that's kind of cast iron evidence.

00:17:01: but I think it would be interesting And It Would Be Sad if They Said Oh!

00:17:04: It Was Really Great.

00:17:05: But When We Got Back In Our Teams We Just Couldn't Find Space Or We Didn'T Have A Confidence.

00:17:10: So in this second phase were also going to have a tool kit.

00:17:14: Nothing Too Much nothing too over the top just something realistic.

00:17:17: there will be few resources That The Police Could Perhaps Use.

00:17:20: so for example the scene i described before with the firearms officer.

00:17:25: We've recorded that now as a really high quality audio recording.

00:17:29: And that could be something the police might use in teams, just as a provocation to then have some discussion about... ...the impact of their policing on communities and people who do nothing wrong but are almost collateral damage if they even think about it at all.

00:17:45: So many interesting points to pick up on.

00:17:48: I was thinking a little bit more about your background and how you came to the creative methods.

00:17:54: Where did your journey start in going into this area, which is quite new for many researchers?

00:18:01: Yeah so my background originally has always been doing empirical work qualitative work ethnographic work And it's been comparative criminal justice fair trial rights really on the other end of things from police Really being very critical And in a way it was almost serendipitous.

00:18:20: I had a university role as the Deputy Pro Vice-Chancellor for Research, when it was Coventry UK City of Culture that was in my portfolio and one of my tasks was effectively to animate a programme of research around city of culture so connecting with creatives ,with local authority, with local voluntary organisations all kinds of strands of community.

00:18:42: essentially I also co-direct the Centre for Operational Police Research, COPPA.

00:18:48: And as i mentioned before West Midlands police were principal partners in City of Culture and so it was important to them have an evaluation of that work.

00:18:56: So because I was involved with Deputy PVC Because around this policing centre we put you know there's a sort of call You never had to tender for bids somewhere but they asked us do their work.

00:19:10: And that's really when it started.

00:19:11: So, that would have been in about twenty-twenty one I guess.

00:19:16: and so you know we did over a hundred interviews and focus groups in evaluating.

00:19:19: That was the big piece of work but we were really struck by the fact that focus was on community, you know.

00:19:29: We need a community to trust us as an idea of the community needing change.

00:19:34: and I think my colleague Rachel is a sociologist i'm a socio-legal lawyer.

00:19:42: we think actually the focus needs to be on the police.

00:19:45: And there's somebody in The Learning and Development team at West Midlands Police who has an arts background, and she's always been this really useful bridge for us between academia and the police via a creative

00:19:56: method.".

00:19:57: So she had said to us you know what about the race action plan?

00:20:00: This could work really well!

00:20:01: What do you

00:20:01: think?".

00:20:02: She gave us the idea because as I say that same officer was an assistant chief constable involved so were able get some buy-in from him.

00:20:11: So that's really kind of how it worked.

00:20:13: It was evaluating what had happened in other projects, understanding what works and doesn't work.

00:20:18: And then we had a few other projects before We got to the police.

00:20:22: so he had one where were working with young people through working with some actors and doing some creative work.

00:20:29: Again, it was like a little bit of forum theatre to get them to think about what makes them feel safe?

00:20:34: And what their perceptions... You know the idea of policing was introduced sort of just a little but indirectly or picked up when they introduced it.

00:20:41: But we asked then to think power and authority on what make them feels save because wanted be more shaped by than us going in with ten questions.

00:20:52: So that's interesting.

00:20:54: the way that was a much more open-textured approach, that allowed things to kind of come in.

00:20:59: I mean obviously it was steered... It wasn't completely open and random but i think there were space for things to be said and themes to come out.

00:21:07: And then similarly with the co-commissioning of the play after Preston.

00:21:11: We did a focus group with The Police, we did some work with schools before and after the play And we also had a big sort-of two hour after show discussion After the Play was performed With criminal justice practitioners... ...with creatives, academics and some policy people.

00:21:26: Again just seeing how people responded to what was in the play Seeing how certain things really chimed with them Just made them think about policing A little bit differently was really instructive, so all of those things I think.

00:21:39: then we felt able to okay now i'll try and do this work with the police but if...but we're working with a director dramaturg and two actors.

00:21:47: And so you know they are the creators!

00:21:49: They absolutely lead on all of that.

00:21:51: We're not academics pretending to be creative You know?

00:21:53: That would be kind of quite offensive really.

00:21:56: So it absolutely has to be a collaboration.

00:21:58: So with all these learnings, you've taken away from that project.

00:22:02: And coming back to my question at the beginning because you are a courtroom researcher and have done extensive work on courts in courtrooms do you think?

00:22:11: The difference I see between police work and the work is that... ...the police decide who they go to in many cases and how they react.

00:22:23: In a courtroom, things are very formalized.

00:22:26: And the way how people are supposed to behave and what they're supposed to say is not by chance.

00:22:33: Is there necessity?

00:22:34: To make professionals in courtrooms aware of how they interact with the public or do you think that's not space where work like would be required?

00:22:46: I Think in current judicial training not necessarily using creative methods, but I think that is recognised as being really important.

00:22:53: That you need to understand the person in front of you.

00:22:55: this is not someone... You don't just see the offence-you have to see the Offender!

00:23:00: I think it's certainly in England and Wales its probation who do a lot of that work And their role has become more policingish so perhaps problematic.

00:23:09: Is there a need?

00:23:11: I guess, for me there's more of a need in policing because as you say it is the police who decide essentially.

00:23:17: They are front line officers in terms of who gets sucked into criminal justice system.

00:23:22: they're the ones who determine that.

00:23:25: That's the gatekeepers really to the criminal justice process and this feels much more urgency with malpractice in policing than consequences.

00:23:36: So The Police Race Action Plan.

00:23:40: people are talking about Black Lives Matter or we've had countless inquiries and reports but this is not new, you know.

00:23:47: yes.

00:23:47: We can go back to Stephen Lawrence.

00:23:48: Yes!

00:23:49: We Can Go Back To The Brixton Riots.

00:23:51: in the nineteen eighties there's always been an issue around the disproportionate policing of black communities You Know?

00:23:58: The Disproportionate Use Of Force More People Dying In Custody The Experience For Black People In Particular Throughout The Criminal Justice System And So It Feels Like That Is Something you know, we need to change it at the front door as it were.

00:24:11: So that's not to say there wouldn't be some value in doing that in courts.

00:24:16: and again It may engage an empathetic response In perhaps a slightly different way if one did that And just sort of understanding little bit about people infront Of them.

00:24:28: so I saw really great play That had been produced recently in collaboration with people With lived experience of criminal justice process.

00:24:37: what an obstacle course it is, if you have your release from prison let's imagine and you have to be in a probation hostel.

00:24:44: And then you get moved and you turn up and its four o'clock.

00:24:48: well no!

00:24:49: You've missed now...you can't wash or close until Thursday.

00:24:51: there are no kettles in the room.

00:24:55: Well I really need hot chocolate to sleep but we'll make at four o clock these conversations that has been had people who aren't being detained But they're having a meeting with the person who is running The Probation Hostel.

00:25:10: And so, there's stuck in that meeting which then makes them late for their meeting With Their Probation Officer Who's saying come on you are ten minutes late.

00:25:17: This like several times this has happened.

00:25:20: I'm gonna have to breach You In it whereas when the probation officer Is late nothing happens.

00:25:25: and So just through this play these experiences were brought out?

00:25:35: had an easy life, you know various things have happened or in terms of poverty or employment.

00:25:40: Or whatever.

00:25:41: but I think just seeing how that fits together and seeing how dysfunctional the criminal justice process sometimes is towards those people And it sounds like they're just moaning all the time But when you've got no money You run out of charge...you run out credit on your phone You see people who haven't gotten enough for their bus fare And so every adjournment is really problematic for them because they have to come back in and so on.

00:26:05: For a variety of reasons that are not necessarily blame-worthy, They have quite chaotic lifestyles sometimes.

00:26:11: So there were many things.

00:26:12: I think now That i can imagine something like those sort of.

00:26:16: you know the foreign theater or getting people To write scenarios In a way that gets him to engage with The situations Of Those People That They Are Effectively Passing Judgment On.

00:26:27: I can absolutely see a value in that.

00:26:28: You

00:26:29: mentioned the ultimate goal, as i understood it is finding this altering self for transformative moments or maybe significant movements of participants in altering their understanding practices, but also their selves.

00:26:48: But we also talked about from a research perspective that you were cautious... ...that it would be safe space for the participants and different ways to do that speaking about they instead of I So drawing on the lessons that you have learned from doing this project Were there any instances where you felt?

00:27:06: That you couldn't provide a safe space For the participants anything that you will do differently today?

00:27:13: So we thought about that quite a lot at the beginning, and we were conscious that we may be taking officers into territory that was distressing.

00:27:22: And it could be triggering... ...and so we said okay we need to know what support either we can put in place or is available in force?

00:27:30: In our very first meeting we reminded officers these are the places where they're provided.

00:27:35: We had kind of participant information leaflet because we needed offices for consent And because we were present in these sessions, and it sort of had a kind of dual purpose.

00:27:45: We also were interested in what we learned about police through their engagement in these particular ways.

00:27:50: so...we did that.

00:27:52: whether or not people think oh yes!

00:27:53: These are just these organizations within the police?

00:27:56: I mean we don't really have any control over that.

00:27:58: but-and we did follow up with a person who was quite distressed.. ..We followed her out to make sure she's okay.

00:28:10: I think that was the only time when we had a concern for somebody's well-being.

00:28:14: Anything else got a little bit tricky, it was resolved within this session.

00:28:20: So there is also one issue around language and words.

00:28:26: you wouldn't say You would use the N word.

00:28:28: then someone says what does that mean?

00:28:31: That was quite distressing particularly people of colour who were in the room.

00:28:35: so those are things.

00:28:38: Yeah, so I don't think there's anything we would have done differently because we did spend quite a bit of time.

00:28:44: And i guess the other thing to mention is that We did pilot two sessions before we embarked on Project Seixat and with a group of officers who were really very resistant.

00:28:55: The creatives in particular found it difficult.

00:28:59: And so what we did is when we set up the full project, We put in place a kind of... I don't know her proper title.

00:29:06: But this was somebody who would be she herself as creative but also therapeutic counsellor.

00:29:13: And so we put in place three sessions, so that our creatives could go and have some time.

00:29:17: A bit like a therapist would have supervision with other therapists So they can talk about what had happened but also perhaps if there were anxious About issues where you're going to be dealing within the next session.

00:29:29: I think it was really good support for them.

00:29:32: In Project Seishat We worked better prepared But also their cohort of officers Was different so didn't get much pushback.

00:29:41: a team and we learned, We don't want to A-team because they are actually quite cliquey.

00:29:48: There's the particular way that behave some of them.

00:29:51: you know there'll be the dominant character.

00:29:52: another is afraid to speak in front of them.

00:29:55: so In Project Seych out ,we had people drawn from teams right across The Westwoodlands.

00:29:59: So They were kind Of all like oh here Are these People?

00:30:02: We're not All You Know.

00:30:03: Kind of teammates together or friends And so on which I think made Them a lot more open.

00:30:08: And so they didn't kind of, you know gang up together against us.

00:30:11: It was a much more collaborative endeavor as the whole workshop.

00:30:15: So Jackie we could have talked to you for much longer but our time's up.

00:30:20: Thank you very much

00:30:21: For

00:30:22: taking part in this and letting us into your expertise.

00:30:27: We're looking forward to next episode!

00:30:30: See

00:30:42: ya later!