Can ethnography and activism overlap? In conversation with Kerstin Carlson

00:00:08: Welcome to the in-court podcast.

00:00:11: The podcasts were redelving into the trials and tribulations of the courtroom.

00:00:15: My name is Nina Thornquist, I'm a criminologist at Uppsala University Sweden.

00:00:20: my research centers on the worlds legal professionals with particular focus on emotion and legal decision making.

00:00:27: i have observed criminal court cases in sweden for almost a decade.

00:00:32: My Name Is Chloe Sklyes And Im A Post Doctoral Research At Lancaster University.

00:00:37: My PhD work looked at the sentencing of individuals charged with terrorism offenses, and I observed court proceedings in England & Wales.

00:01:01: In this podcast we dive into complexities we have identified throughout our times observing legal proceedings to demystify what

00:01:08: happens

00:01:11: in the courtroom.

00:01:20: I

00:01:27: am a law and society scholar is what i call myself.

00:01:33: I also sometimes call myself a critical transitional justice scholar, I'm trained in both Law & Social Sciences sort of broadly

00:01:42: sketched...

00:01:43: And I am an associate professor at Voskilde University in Denmark.

00:01:47: it's just outside of Copenhagen in Denmark ...and also teach at the American University of Paris!

00:01:55: Now, more than twenty years ago I worked for a few years as a corporate lawyer.

00:02:01: Putting the PhD in a twenty thirteen, my book that was based on The Ph.D came out in twenty eighteen.

00:02:27: so by some counts That is work that took me twenty years to complete.

00:02:31: So when we're talking about slow scholarship and I sometimes like to joke that uh...I think i feel There wasn't depth right?

00:02:39: When you struggle with something over two decades You know it!

00:02:42: And you have something To say About It.

00:02:50: was super convinced by the Danish way of being and living, I could be middle-class and an academic.

00:02:56: And decided to try and make a go at it and manage too.

00:02:59: so now have worked in eight universities that are in Denmark where I've worked or taught half them.

00:03:06: Well thank you very

00:03:08: much Chirsten.

00:03:09: we're really pleased.

00:03:16: The intersection and maybe sometimes contradiction, just the struggling of two roles being an academic researcher on one hand.

00:03:28: On the other hand also thinking yourself as a activist how would you place that?

00:03:33: Could

00:03:34: tell us what your thoughts are about this?

00:03:36: Yeah, absolutely.

00:03:37: And I can tell you my thoughts right away that oh, i'm not an activist!

00:03:40: I would never call myself an activist.

00:03:41: so that's the beginning of our thoughts like...I cannot be both an academic and an activist.

00:03:45: and yes please..i am an academic.

00:03:47: but I wanted to talk about this because I find it interesting.

00:03:52: when I began my career there were really strong boundaries put between these two fields Like one is an academic Because One Is Dispassionate Studied Careful Research Oriented and distinctly neutral before your subject, right?

00:04:09: We're going to go in.

00:04:10: We are gonna examine something how we will let what we see on the ground speak to us and inform us And to a degree that we cannot escape The mortal coil upon which were born.

00:04:19: Will like name those things at least be as reflective about them.

00:04:24: So That's where I began my career.

00:04:27: When again was working i started it law then moved to transitional justice did lot of work for Yugoslavia And discovered when I got there that of course, I brought a bunch of assumptions and sort of legal baggage from training as an American lawyer to the circumstance in The Balkans.

00:04:44: Then had an opinion—had really strong opinions about what people called justice and we should talk about how they sensed it yet still could use those opinions or questions as ways of structuring research.

00:04:57: questions asked so i didn't feel like activist in any particular form, that transitional justice and the Balkans was so flawed.

00:05:06: That it was possible to be a fan of peace and be on the side of peace but still be academically critical about sort of anyone you interacted

00:05:14: with.".

00:05:15: And then I think has been really challenged by the current moment.

00:05:17: we're particularly regarding the war in Gaza – an Israel's alleged.

00:05:22: at this point we can say annexation.

00:05:26: international law, like a series of legal formulations that I was raised with and studied are being challenged.

00:05:33: And they're being challenged in the way there would be no brainer except for what's happening in Israel—except it is happening in a democracy on the Middle East —a place many of us feel real affiliation towards.

00:05:47: so makes really difficult to dispassionately look at the facts on the ground and say, call out the Israeli genocide of Palestinians for what it is.

00:05:56: And so...and then of course this is a political moment that makes that also very difficult.

00:06:00: So I found That to the degree again- and i still would call myself an academic but The degree that I'm trying to include questions about Palestine in my teaching possibly In my research certainly in like blog posts that I do To the degree that i've wanted to include topic as a viable topic and found myself silenced, stymied, critiqued denied at my own place of work.

00:06:28: To the degree that those things have happened it's made me more aware what is means to be an academic thinker or researcher in time where so many topics are

00:06:37: politicized.".

00:06:38: So I end up finding myself an unwilling activist.

00:06:43: I think when you said, do you want to speak about activism in this kind of context?

00:06:48: My initial where my brain initially went too was the idea of observing trials as a form of activism.

00:06:58: Bringing processes that are potentially normally held behind closed doors into public consciousness and just observing what might have already gone unobserved.

00:07:12: Do you kind of think or feel in your experiences, that being able to observe the processes potentially hidden is this site where you feel activism happens?

00:07:26: I

00:07:27: think that's really a fair assessment.

00:07:32: And certainly in my own research, it has been part of what's driven me to continue.

00:07:38: Ethnography is long and when you're sitting at court there can be times where things are not super interesting like boring right?

00:07:47: When your investing time from... many of the trials I have observed, i've had to like leave home you know so you have to go stay somewhere else.

00:07:57: You have to cover a hotel uh-you have to be away from your family and then again you have these long days...You're really alone because you're not in any kind of team!

00:08:05: You are NOT with the-so it's in many ways..it's a lengthy isolating experience.

00:08:10: in some ways there maybe are easier ways to be an academic.

00:08:15: And of course, we can also talk about all the ways in which it's fascinating and like innervating and delightful to be inside the action of a court into feel that you're right where something lived is taking place.

00:08:28: but I would say those sort of moments or bigger picture ideas to something sometimes could be pretty slow long at least resource-taking activity for sure.

00:08:40: The work that I've done from trial ethnography has been energized, by the activist point of it.

00:08:48: I find when I'm in terror trials, or there was a racialized but not race charged as part of the crime trial at Bordholm.

00:08:57: That's one of my first trials that I've served here in Denmark—that it was an absence for this necessary social element and conversation that drove me to go be there on the first

00:09:07: place.".

00:09:08: And that is certainly true of terror trials!

00:09:13: are marginalized, they're treated often as monsters.

00:09:17: There's a notion that terror is atavistic and inhuman.

00:09:20: so I think one can say there's an activism that drives your desire to go see the human on trial or represent him in this process.

00:09:33: for sure true but We still have a lot of, there's a lot space to step back from activism.

00:09:41: So we can absolutely only talk other ethnographers or lawyers and there is specialized conversation that takes place in these spaces.

00:09:54: narrow your focus, your publications and you reach to other people who are acting in that space as kind of like I would call it the pureness of music.

00:10:04: So we're gonna make sure that we do a method in the right way And talk with others who do methods in ways they respect sit and look for the law, but not trained as an anthropologist.

00:10:26: And even like I said a kind of a so-so sociologist or social scientist because i didn't have good strong focused method training when.

00:10:38: So in that sense, I've always felt like i was a little bit making it up and one of the answers to when you're making It Up Like That is then to justify The work You're doing In these larger activist veins.

00:10:46: Right?

00:10:47: I will go inside this courtroom just like you said Chloe And I Will.

00:10:50: I will shed light I will give voice To I will raise awareness about something which Is demonstrative Of the society that we have because it's our court We're all paying for it.

00:11:00: its representation of who we are and yet often noticed, or seen.

00:11:04: Or the thing that I think is important here isn't being talked about in a way I find

00:11:08: necessary.".

00:11:10: But again... That ends up still being pretty defensively academic and that at least activism takes us out of what's defensively-academic.

00:11:21: So this topic is so fascinating!

00:11:23: And i'm trained as criminologist.

00:11:27: So the idea of this passion is a little bit different, maybe from a legal scholar.

00:11:32: I think we all are on some personal level drawn to the topics that we study... ...the urgency of them.

00:11:41: so for me it's been very eye-opening to read both Howard Beckers and Alison Lieblings' work On Whose Side Are We On?

00:11:49: To understand not only what were trying do but also establishing establishing a we that do the research and what we want to be able to say.

00:12:00: And I think, I mean Becker is talking about general hierarchy of credibility in how research is supposed to counter that when you do research on marginalized groups in general.

00:12:12: but then for me right now i'm studying The Lindin trial where two defendants are very powerful persons in society.

00:12:25: Yeah, the idea of activism and understanding on what a trial is supposed to do because you have victims or plaintiffs coming from very poor circumstances in South Africa.

00:12:40: And then the defendants are from global north multi-millionaire defendants.

00:12:48: I think also in your research you have been, yeah like you said.

00:12:51: You've been traveling around the world and how do you balance different perspectives that always meet and clash within a trial?

00:13:00: Yeah thanks Nina!

00:13:02: That's such a great question so at risk of answering it in much smaller less good way than was asked.

00:13:10: It just made me remind...I was recently in Paris, watching a universal jurisdiction case.

00:13:17: And it's a Yazidi genocide case.

00:13:19: so It was a foreign fighter who is accused of genocide and also crimes against humanity in absentia In relation to the Yazidi population.

00:13:32: In Paris, you have a couple different courts where terror trials can be held.

00:13:35: And then of course there was like the Batacan trial which they set up their own special court.

00:13:40: but then I was in this same court building where i was again just last week because that's were the public...I didn't have a special pass to get into the actual trial so I was on broadcast part with.

00:13:53: But somehow last week as I walked in, I was assaulted.

00:13:56: And I don't know if it because of the time of year or the way that light was but I was assaulted by a memory from very first terror trial which came to watch.

00:14:07: and when you've done something wrong your stomach falls out get nervous almost like cold sweat.

00:14:20: That's how i felt when I walked into the court back in twenty eighteen, and it might be because like i had this sense.

00:14:26: Like I had just four years earlier myself-like I had left Paris...and had trouble with making enough money for my taxes!

00:14:35: So I'd been so much more vulnerable precarious And My whole experience of The French State was that It Was After Me.

00:14:43: And so being in that file made me feel myself vulnerable, like oh my God.

00:14:48: Like look left, look right?

00:14:50: Just how do I not be able to figure out the tax thing on this one than

00:14:54: me?".

00:14:54: Right and then now eight years later when I was assaulted by them memory, I was thinking about how I've switched the place I am.

00:15:03: This is just a building now.

00:15:05: I'm a researcher.

00:15:06: I belong here as much as anybody else have been here.

00:15:08: enough.

00:15:11: how much of, I mean it would be very hard to live like...I think if i had that feeling in my stomach every time I walked into a court.

00:15:17: I probably wouldn't do this work!

00:15:18: Like that would be too unpleasant you know but felt way too personal for me each time?

00:15:23: But there's still something I feel like there's still something valuable about that.

00:15:28: There, but for the grace of God go I sense when you're walking in and i feel Like that's a lot Of what draws me at least to the terror work That that i do right.

00:15:36: so When i'm uh or teratrial ethnography?

00:15:40: Like observation that i Do not actual terror But the thinking About how did people find themselves In these positions How do they understand themselves?

00:15:48: And But what blindnesses and misunderstandings of them is the state performing against them.

00:15:54: I think, um-I am very sympathetic to that And i think those sympathies are part Of To The Degree That I Have Perspective-Observational Perspectives I Think Can Add To Literature...i think thats where it comes from?

00:16:07: So then..i think Thats Really Interesting.

00:16:08: If You're Watching Like I Went To Watch The LaFarge Trial And I Just Didn't Get Nearly As Into It Maybe Because For Whatever Reasons Then I Think you have a Researcher Or You Have To Decide What is it that like sort of lights a fire in me, et cetera?

00:16:22: But I do think those questions whether or not... Oh this interesting because these are people with a lot money and power.

00:16:29: So how they managing the trial rate?

00:16:31: but we have to find our way in.

00:16:33: And i-i think for me The easiest way has always been This Way Of Empathy Like That's the..and I haven't learned really other good ways In.

00:16:44: so its Always There.

00:16:45: But You Know After my twenty years of going back to Yugoslavia, My next project was in Senegal.

00:16:54: And one of the things I had wanted with that project was to take a new place.

00:16:57: That I could hopefully care less about this, like Yugoslavia.

00:17:01: it just...I burned for you know and i wanted some something that would be interesting.

00:17:05: but then what?

00:17:06: I found when I went to Senegal is You can't go To A Place and not learn to burn For It!

00:17:10: Like that's Just-and in fact that Is more..it kind Of More How I Tick.

00:17:15: So Then You Figure That Out About Yourself As A Researcher and Then You Find out how To Keep The Flame At A Good Level.

00:17:21: You Know Don't Burn Down The Kitchen But You know, keep the flame alive.

00:17:26: We were very strong in distinguishing between being an activist and being an academic earlier And I wanted to revisit that thought because from what you also said how you still have two house budgets To cover your travel expenses In a hotel room What i've realised is just a german thing.

00:17:47: But if you look for third party funding We often see now that foundations are big funders of research.

00:17:58: They often ask universities or academics to cooperate with NGOs, who we could name the homes of activists?

00:18:06: I don't know... they really burn for a cause as you would say and want change the world.

00:18:12: And it's also funds called for transformation etc.

00:18:17: So I have the impression and yeah, just wanted to vet that with a three of you maybe.

00:18:22: That there is a longing within society that transformation happens?

00:18:28: And this somehow led by findings that academics produce but they also understand.

00:18:35: it's not academics who actually can play through or get done.

00:18:40: so want us to interact with NGOs do think to mix the professions of being academics and activists.

00:18:49: So, I don't know...I just don't what make these funding lines.

00:18:53: And i wanted if you came across this changes your perspective on distinction?

00:19:05: is interesting to think about, and this again comes from my background in transitional justice.

00:19:09: That transitional justice we just wrote a book called A-paradigmatic Transitional Justice ,and we wrote an introduction where we were theorizing... And we talked about the power of disruption right?

00:19:19: Like to what degree is transitional justice seeking?

00:19:25: After we wrote the introduction, one of my co-authors was saying to me, oh, like this disruption.

00:19:30: You were always cracking this disruption whip but maybe we should do more with that?

00:19:35: Should we try and write something else or should be trying see how that's applied in other

00:19:39: places?".

00:19:41: And it's true for at least disruption is a critical part I guess what transitional justice works.

00:19:47: And then at the same time, what we expect in academia is not disruption.

00:19:52: So I was thinking a little bit before like...I was trained—like…the joke that my advisors made with me was it will be like patricide you'll rise up if they were all men.

00:20:00: Oh!

00:20:00: That's not true.

00:20:01: but uh there's one woman.

00:20:02: But by-my most of my closest advisers on my dissertation who were male My main advisor said You know?

00:20:08: Rise Up and Kill Me.

00:20:09: I'm Your Father —that's your job–you go out and make your research and On The One Hand i train you but on the other hand By The Time You're Done And I don't know to how true that is of what we do.

00:20:20: I often see the ways in which i use the tools he gave me without ever having actually killed his work, but Malcolm Filly uh...I say thank you!

00:20:28: But also..i think there's something really powerful like my advisor telling if you succeed ,you will have rendered me superfluous and wherein?

00:20:39: where in the conversations that we're having now is that same permissibility for disruption.

00:20:43: So part of what I see on your question, it's We imagine NGOs as being possibly disruptors?

00:20:49: Now i'm really moved by being a Denmark and Denmark.

00:20:52: NGOs are not huge disruptors so we did just have an f- Thirty five case here That was brought by NGOs.

00:20:59: they were seeking to disrupt But it was a release.

00:21:02: It was really kind of a calm and sweet disruptive narrative, so Denmark is not at least where our NGOs work against the government And they also receive some funds from governments Everyone's friends in the end-of-the day.

00:21:14: Now we're starting to talk about re-migration.

00:21:16: In Denmark One political party that just won an election That went up The percentage of votes it took Is actually talking about a quota for Muslims.

00:21:26: This is shockingly racialized Discursive politics.

00:21:31: I think disruption is necessary in the face of that.

00:21:34: It doesn't make sense to talk about, well how can we work together or what ways might be?

00:21:42: But i was thinking it's actually in certain places and im not sure through this maybe a little easier.

00:21:49: but certainly in Denmark we don't like disruption.

00:21:51: Disruption is precisely which you're NOT supposed do.

00:21:54: everyone were.

00:21:55: collective Disruption for its own sake is not appreciated and it's not validated, but in many cases when we look historically or think about what the best researches are like.

00:22:11: What if Foucault isn't disruptive?

00:22:13: I'm going to come into that and shake up your thinking.

00:22:19: We respect those thinkers.

00:22:21: so... And also we're trained with this as a goal.

00:22:25: but we're living in kind of an interesting moment where the tools for those that disruption.

00:22:28: But maybe I should open it to you guys and see what you think?

00:22:31: For me, It's a very interesting tension.

00:22:35: so We are all doing courtroom ethnography And like you said Sheristan empathy is Very useful tool To get inside Of.

00:22:45: different perspectives presented In trial with activist concept Of course were not apart in the trial.

00:22:54: we're observers, and that could be of course... We can give voice to what is happening inside a very closed space although it's open.

00:23:02: It not many people knowing whats really going on there.

00:23:05: but then if you want to pursue activist part that can happen much, much later than the trial is usually finished.

00:23:15: So I mean our writing processes and having an article or a book... ...is much slower then usually legal system.

00:23:23: maybe not now i'm talking from The Swedish Protective but yeah my experience with NGOs.

00:23:30: we have some collaboration of course share some interests.

00:23:37: we also need to balance our relationships built within the court, with different actors.

00:23:43: With the prosecutors or the defenders of victims' counsel and then too much belonging to an NGO might affect access for other parties to participate.

00:23:56: so there's maybe ethical challenge in balancing these two positions.

00:24:03: as a researcher

00:24:05: I think.

00:24:06: Going back to the point about disruption, I certainly don't have any answers about it.

00:24:12: but that thing kind of came into my mind is... It's not just who a disruptor is.

00:24:18: How receptive we are being disrupted right?

00:24:21: It's about how are you willing to be disrupted or are going to dismiss disruption entirely?

00:24:29: and i think thats really interesting.

00:24:33: Tension thinking.

00:24:35: I don't have any answers about that, but i think there might be an interesting thread for us to pull on and talk about actually.

00:24:42: About that kind of tension?

00:24:44: And like I said, I think for me There's something That is Interesting to consider To what degree if academic research should Be disruptive then activism Is also intended to be Disruptive.

00:24:56: than to What Degree is Academic Research more in parallel to Activism Than it's normally presented?

00:25:04: Yeah, I'm thinking also about the several audiences that we have.

00:25:08: We have the academic audience... ...we have general public and of course the NGOs involved parties….

00:25:16: …and how to gain authority within these audiences so they can believe what we are writing.

00:25:23: It both needs to be felt at something that they recognize!

00:25:27: that they still want to be a little bit tickled or, I mean... They don't have their mind blown.

00:25:34: But they wanted to stretch their previous knowledge just the right amount.

00:25:40: so it's something new and novel but not totally out of reach kind-of.

00:25:47: And when you've got so many different audiences That can be tricky.

00:25:54: in a sense You should make sense on many different levels or many, many different arenas.

00:25:59: maybe is better.

00:26:00: Yeah I think that's right.

00:26:01: and ii think there's a larger question too about what our value like... What are values to societies academics?I work at a public university so literally everything I do is paid for by the taxpayer Right!

00:26:14: So thats Denmark That's paying me And we At some level, it seems like we're kind of sitting on the.

00:26:22: as an American.

00:26:23: I feel like i'm watching The Dissolution Of An Empire-the place i'm from.

00:26:27: and then as an academic It sometimes feels Like that too That this concept of value of knowledge As intellectual training is also under attack or at least Reconfiguration in certain ways And I think being in a sense of challenge.

00:26:44: So on the one hand, we have value because there's something called knowledge and that knowledge is something again, dispassionately and neutrally can be pursued and achieved.

00:26:58: And then another political reality which And so I feel, I never felt like it's very far from my mind in many different ways.

00:27:11: The singing for my supper element of what is that i do whether thats how who im teaching?

00:27:17: the only question Do they work?

00:27:22: After you've taught them, do they have

00:27:23: jobs?".

00:27:24: And it's an interesting question to ask of me because I would say as an academic that that's precisely not my area of expertise.

00:27:31: How people work.

00:27:32: has twenty-five year olds in Denmark but still is a huge part.

00:27:36: how i need understand the value what its doing and providing students.

00:27:42: Then, of course we have artificial intelligence and chat GVT.

00:27:45: And the kind of revocation of standard ways of learning that we've practiced up to now certainly in a way I was trained is no longer our training students so... So i think lot these things are spiraling around at same time end as interesting challenges We get.

00:28:02: keep asking ourselves how do you construct value?

00:28:07: what we do, our social role is how are teaching and research contributes to the societies in which we find ourselves.

00:28:14: In what way?

00:28:16: And then going forward even though no one's calling me up to ask you this but I also can't...I think it's not realistic that there doesn't have anything to do with because it does.

00:28:28: There're a million more things to raise The term extractivism.

00:28:36: So if we think of the connection between research or academia and NGOs, this term refers to how sometimes things are done and have been done by activists for a long time that has also been there as knowledge.

00:28:51: And that refers to point you just raised like There was knowledge on topic but only once an academic writes it up and brands it with their name, says this is blah-blah.

00:29:03: That makes the whole work of activists that's been done for decades often completely invisible... ...and just relates knowledge then to that name.

00:29:15: I struggle at this point because writing up what i do if find things need to write them up also make them sightable and findable etc.

00:29:27: site webpages and I try to say, like point out all the different names.

00:29:34: And different NGOs that have worked on a topic but still it will be Boogie Line in twenty-twenty six if it's cited.

00:29:41: so i just wanted is not something you struggle with?

00:29:45: or Is there a topic who come across when you think about activism and academia?

00:29:52: It's a really good point, Nicole.

00:29:53: I think the point of extractivism is super interesting and you know i do work in Colombia And there are many other people that I've worked with have made it really clear like no research about us without Us right?

00:30:04: Like That!

00:30:05: And I Think that that Is A Really Great Place to Start Right.

00:30:08: so if You're Going To Work on People Then You Work With People.

00:30:13: Yeah.

00:30:13: So I Think Thinking About How Research Is Extractive And it's really clear in the global south, but I think its possible in many places.

00:30:24: It is interesting and also true that part of what we do... ...is try to make legible debates about which we are experts.. ..and that legibility for which we put our name or get promotion.. ..or win awards or funding… That legibility does have social value!

00:30:45: So I was just earlier this week at a meeting of four different university academic groups that are working on solidarity for Palestine.

00:30:53: And so the question is, how were we working in our respective academic spheres towards these questions?

00:30:59: It's nice to meet people but one thing came up with several other institutions and Denmark have the same problem as my institution which it politicized where no-one wants trouble.

00:31:15: But so if you want to do something on Palestine, the answer is no.

00:31:17: No because we just don't want trouble.

00:31:20: and So one of the things that for example at The Technical University in Denmark they did a discussion.

00:31:26: They were looking into questions of carbon right?

00:31:28: And so the devastation of Gaza has huge carbon problems.

00:31:32: so You can talk about you.

00:31:35: but carbon is also That's a real topic and or the you know, the genocide in Palestine right?

00:31:46: Or of Palestinians.

00:31:48: then there will be many ways to get at this.

00:31:50: And one of the things that you won't get is any credit for that.

00:31:53: so now there's been a talk about carbon and something important has some- Something that was on your agenda let's say Has come up but it's been converted In the meantime To something which no longer appears on your list or at least these academics who had an academic, and they have an activist interest.

00:32:14: They were fine with that right like That's okay.

00:32:18: so if I think about for my own work, like one of the things I feel...I have a bit of an activist belief that law should is for regular people.

00:32:26: So we need to write about it in way that regular people can understand.

00:32:29: don't leave law to the lawyers so.

00:32:31: or i have another activism-i'm a danish immigrant to Denmark and make danish people listen to me speak danish with my accent!

00:32:37: It's just what if my activists you will listen now?

00:32:40: Speak Danish at you even though you might not like it

00:32:43: right?!

00:32:43: And these kind of quiet moments When I see if someone else takes this idea forward and says, you know law is not for lawyers.

00:32:53: I'm just happy.

00:32:54: That's an idea i want in the world And I don't need my name on it.

00:32:58: So there are certain things that we do Like you said, be cited for and it matters in certain ways.

00:33:05: But there's also things that we're pushing forward.

00:33:07: so I think any kind of larger application if human rights like the idea That never again was never supposed to be For one group Of people at One time but It is actually about genocide And The way We see all humans as Creatures with dignity & Rights.

00:33:21: Anyone Who takes up that mantle Lets go!

00:33:23: And i Think There are some activists.

00:33:27: thats Also part.

00:33:29: To the degree that you have a cause, there's ways to further that cause and that doesn't require citation.

00:33:36: And then there are other forms of extractivism.

00:33:38: that is about a form of theft—and we need to be alert to it but... It isn't binary!

00:33:46: You know?

00:33:46: There're different spaces.

00:33:48: as usual We could talk on for hours with you Shersin But time is limited and our times up.

00:33:56: Thank you very, very much for having this conversation with us.

00:33:59: And thank you all for listening and we're looking forward to our next episode.

00:34:05: Bis zum

00:34:06: nächsten

00:34:08: Mal!